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  • Chipp
    replied
    The mic placement relative to the guitar had been used in previous attempts, at a location nearly identical to the last one. And I hadn't thought of this before, but the foam box was aimed across the short axis of the room, which meant I was blocking reflections from the wall behind me.

    I've now created 2 presets, 1 each equalized for flat and finger picking. The curves are very similar, with an uphill tilt to control a couple of peaks in the low end and raise the upper harmonics. Getting precise setting can be tedious with the buttons on the phone (I know that's probably much easier on an iPad), but the parametric equalizer works exceedingly well, without a need for steep adjustments to Q or radical peaks and dips in the curves. With some patience, careful listening, and an understanding of the interactive nature of these adjustments, it's entirely possible to bring each string into a nice even balance with the rest.

    Cleaning the mic opening, and possibly enabling the rear noise cancelling mic, are likely to be part of the difference I've heard, especially the overall increase in gain. but along with me standing in front of it, the foam box does isolate the mic from the acoustics of the room.

    I'll be curious to hear if anyone else tries this with the same results. And again, Voiceprint DI is a great preamp for acoustic guitars with transducers.

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  • Guitarune
    replied
    I really doubt the little foam box is able to isolate much in the lower register... Could be that cleaning your phone mic helped quite a bit!

    Small rooms can certainly play a role, especially if the phone is placed at a distance from the guitar. But I'm guessing it most often is the placement relative to the guitar, and to surfaces close by (table, wall, cabinet etc).

    I put my phone on a little tripod/selfie thing, away from reflective surfaces. Some 6" out from the 12th fret. Seems to work nicely.

    That said, I do EQ the result quite a bit, but not very different from how I EQ recorded guitars.

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  • Chipp
    replied
    It does work and this is why...

    I bought the VOICEPRINT DI because it was developed to measure the impulse response of my guitar, leveraging the processing power of my iPhone to accurately capture it’s one-of-a-kind voice, transforming my pickup into its most authentic sound. A search on impulse response makes clear that the idea is to use acoustic modeling to enhance the inherent limitations of my transducers with an algorithm that adds the complex acoustical depth I hear when it's played. So the process starts with the mic - in an acoustic space - along with everything that implies.

    All of my voiceprints (including the most recent one described yesterday) have been made in the same relatively small room, and in each case the mic and the guitar were about half way between the ceiling and the floor. More recent attempts were also about halfway between the closest pair of walls. A search on standing waves, room modes, and null modes show destructive interference occurs at a given frequency on center (and at other multiples) between any set of parallel walls, and since the majority of the acoustical energy is the lowest frequencies, that cancellation eliminates a lot of the low end of the guitar from the impulse response that's measured.

    I haven't found a lot that explains the details of this processing, but it stands to reason that the boomy, tubby, and loose low end many people are getting is due to the algorithm trying to optimize the low frequency energy that's not there to be optimized, so the end result is an increase in low frequency noise, which is what I was getting before.

    The inexpensive anechoic chamber isolates the mic from the room acoustics, so it's able to hear the way the really guitar sounds, and that allows the algorithm to work as intended. To be clear, that is open cell foam. Something stiffer might create the same problems at higher frequencies.

    The output of my DI is connected to the input of my mixer so I can adjust the preamp level to avoid overload and optimize it's signal to noise ratio. The first thing I noticed, even before I listened to the new voiceprint, was the input was now overdriven because there was so much more REAL low frequency energy. When I did listen that was obviously the case. I haven't tried to document the increased signal level, but I would guess it's easily twice as loud, if not more, than it was before.

    I think different acoustic spaces probably explains most of the variations people are getting in their voiceprints, since this starts with an acoustical process, and a significant flaw in that process cannot be corrected by the algorithm or any EQ in the processing.

    I'm definitely glad to find my evaluation of the Voiceprint DI before I bought it was correct and that it can work as described when used in a way that keeps its from working against itself.

    I hope this helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • Caleb_Elling
    replied
    That's quite the setup. If it works it works!

    Let us know how things go after you get some more time to play with it. If you find that any specific aspect of your new setup is making the biggest difference, I'd be curious to hear it.

    Thanks for sharing!

    Leave a comment:


  • Chipp
    replied
    ONE SOLUTION - I have an iPhone XS, your iPhone may be different, and this was posted after my previous one about boomy/tubby Voiceprints.

    1) I carry my phone on my belt in an Otter clip that includes a protective case. That case creates an opening about 3/16" deep around the bottom mic.
    I took the case off to eliminate the acoustic issues that might create. When I did I was able to see the dirt that was in the opening for the mic, I couldn't see when the case was on.
    2) I enabled Noise Cancellation on the phone, which enables the rear mic near the camera lens. That's at Settings -> Accessibility -> Audio Visual -> Phone Noise Cancellation.
    I had not done this for previous Voiceprints and that's the only thing under AV that's enabled.
    3) I happened to have several pieces of foam around so I built an inexpensive anechoic chamber (see attached) to eliminate most reflections in my studio which is not yet acoustically treated.
    Note the small piece of foam that was used to keep the phone off of the bottom piece to avoid blocking the rear mic.
    4) I used the default method to create a new Voiceprint, with the mic at a good level about 6-8" away from the phone.
    I've done nothing more with it yet, but from past experience I can tell already that this is a big improvement.
    The low end is not loose and boomy, the signal to noise ratio is much higher (which was becoming an issue after equalizing previous attempts), and while I'll probably run it in the 70 to 80 percent mix range, it doesn't become completely unusable - and much quieter - when turned all the way up.
    5) From more than a little experience managing performance quality AV installations, I think most people are having this problem because of dirty mics and reflections from small room acoustics.
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    This gallery has 1 photos.

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  • Caleb_Elling
    replied
    Hey Chipp,
    I think that the mic placement is definitely the first issue. Aiming the mic directly at the soundhole is going to sound very boomy, whether it's a phone mic or a studio condenser. Mic'ing the lower bout of the guitar may not be quite as boomy, but it won't have any definition either.

    I'd definitely recommend using the placement recommended in the app, with the phone pointed roughly mid-way between the soundhole and the neck joint, and 8-10" away from the guitar. If you're using a single mic, this is typically going to sound the most balanced. You can definitely experiment with the placement, but this is absolutely the best place to start in my experience.

    You don't want to clip the mic or pickup inputs either, but getting the mic placement dialed in will make a huge difference.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chipp
    replied
    Hi Caleb -

    I had the phone sitting on a microfiber dust cloth on a teak desk protruding as far as it would safely, and aimed directly at the sound hole about 6 - 8" away. Later I moved it towards the bottom end of the guitar, further away, but still aimed at the sound hole. I remember seeing it aimed at the fingerboard in one of the videos but that seemed counterintuitive and I have not tried that. This is a large dreadnaught with a big resonant sound, so if overdriving the mic is not good, it's entirely likely that's the problem, but the incoming mic level didn't look overdriven. I'll try going easier on it again tomorrow. Should I be thinking of more or less bottom end to end up with less of that in the VP, or is the process more complicated than that?

    Leave a comment:


  • Caleb_Elling
    replied
    Hey Chipp,
    Thanks for posting.

    The first thing I would look at is the mic placement when you're making your Voiceprints. Can you tell me where you have the mic positioned relative to the soundhole and neck joint of the guitar?

    Also, I've found that playing a little softer can make a big difference in the quality of the VP. Playing too loud can overwhelm the mic (in some cases) and make the VP pretty boomy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chipp
    replied
    My Voiceprint DI arrived yesterday and mine also become boomier as that's increased in the mix. I know these can be equalized and it's readily apparent that this will eventually work extremely well, but I've learned from experience that cleaner from the start will provide the best range of tonal options with the least amount of manipulation in the end. So my question is: Will increasing the level of the transducer from the guitar help that problem, or is it boomy because it thinks there's a need for more of the reverberant sound (not less) that's picked up by the mic?

    Leave a comment:


  • Caleb_Elling
    replied
    Hey Aaron,
    I actually just got word that we submitted the update to Apple today. So it should come through the App store by tonight or early tomorrow. That should fix all of the known-issues with the dead Voiceprints/presets.

    Leave a comment:


  • aaronmarkson
    replied
    Caleb - Any update on the release of the app update?

    I did have to reset the pedal and it's working again.

    I made some new voiceprints after the reset. They are still quite muddy / tubby sounding. Once again - slightly better if I play with a light touch.

    For kicks, I tried using an old iPhone 6s and I got the same or similar results. It is strange. I have no problem recording these guitars without them being boomy.

    I am going to try making a voiceprint using an external mic at some point and see what that is like. I need some additional equipment first.

    While it is frustrating, I am not giving up. If anything, it highlights the EQ section and how much can be done with it.

    I am very much looking forward to the update as well as the advanced toolkit to be able to eq the Voiceprint separate from the preset. It will take a little work, but I think this will allow for a really good result even if the voiceprints start out with all that low and low mid accentuation. I personally don't mind doing the work on the front end and then saving the presets to be used with no or minimal tweaking after that. That may not be the case for others. This also seems to be happening to only some users.

    Leave a comment:


  • Caleb_Elling
    replied
    [QUOTE=aaronmarkson;n9570]I tried making a new voiceprint tapping and playing softly. It was better. Not perfect, but with eq would be good. Unfortunately, something happened. After I made this new VP, I deleted some old ones and moved the new ones, all in the app. And now I get nothing coming through. No matter if it is bypassed or not. No signal is passing through. I unplugged everything and restarted the app. Still nothing. I didn’t try a factory reset and fresh install of the app. Will try that next week.[/QUOTE]

    What you're experiencing is something that 2-3 other people have run into. We should be releasing an app update this week that will solve the issue entirely. You may still need to reset the pedal though. The issue happens when preset data is corrupted when moving presets around. The update is going through some final tests today and should be approved for release.

    Sorry about that.

    Leave a comment:


  • aaronmarkson
    replied
    I tried making a new voiceprint tapping and playing softly. It was better. Not perfect, but with eq would be good. Unfortunately, something happened. After I made this new VP, I deleted some old ones and moved the new ones, all in the app. And now I get nothing coming through. No matter if it is bypassed or not. No signal is passing through. I unplugged everything and restarted the app. Still nothing. I didn’t try a factory reset and fresh install of the app. Will try that next week.
    Last edited by aaronmarkson; 12-23-2020, 07:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Caleb_Elling
    replied
    [QUOTE=aaronmarkson;n9532]I definitely tapped on the bridge pretty loud/hard and played at full volume when making the voiceprints.[/QUOTE]

    Ok, playing softer might do the trick. Let us know how it goes.

    Leave a comment:


  • aaronmarkson
    replied
    Caleb - good call on checking for lint. I did check that and that wasn’t the issue for me.

    Playing softly and tapping softly is what I’ll try next.
    I definitely tapped on the bridge pretty loud/hard and played at full volume when making the voiceprints.

    Leave a comment:

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